Does god exist?

[[1amayzingman]]

Here is your assumption. It's entirely incorrect.

I propose that every mother and father gladly value their 3 year old's crayon drawing over the mona lisa. To them, the success and love this represents would far outweigh the high art of a long deceased generation.

Perfection, as far as we are aware, is undefined- and the debate of what perfection is, is more of a head-scratcher than the existance of deities.

Until we come to an adaquate understanding of perfection, it is not a tool which can be used here to much effect, and as different gods all claim to be perfect, well it becomes more of a reason to doubt perfect deities.


Side line: 'God' Hypothesis, I am aware this hypothesis contains infinite regression.
Recently biological scientists were discussing sendings genetic material in space craft off to the distance 1000 exo planets we have discovered outside our solar systems. To reproduce on a mass scale. The plan was turned down as preposturous and vain.

Now imagine, another race long long ago, in a galaxy far far away, was not so strict. Imagine they sent their genetic material to our world.
What evidence do we have for this?
-Speciation genes. Almost all living things have genes for speciation- which deliberately accelerate their evolution, this would be a priority for reproductive aliens, because without fast evolution your new world would be very boring and may not adapt to the strange conditions.
-Lack of life elsewhere. An alien civilisation keen to reproduce would probably not destroy other cultures to do so, this is the fear our own scientists had, so they would send out their seedlings to sparsely populated regions of space- like our own.
-The drake's equation. This estimate indicates that intelligent cultures don't last long by any means, so an alien civilisation would have extinction on the brain (if they had one), making sure that their genes survived- the universal biological purpose- would mean spreading their seeds before it was too late.

Value, maybe. But you would be hard pressed to find a person who would call it more artistic.

[Rammjet]

Value, maybe. But you would be hard pressed to find a person who would call it more artistic.

You're confusing your terms now.

Since artistic does not equate as perfect.


I think you'd be surprised how many artists would disagree with you, since art is another field which has a poor definition.

If you view art as expressive visual creativity, well, the rougher expressive crayon doodle would most likely win against a photorealistic portrait. (though the undertones to miss lisa are debateable)

You're not considering your terms with a properlly open mind. If you do, it's a bit dissapointing that all of the standards and cultural norms you held in these areas- such as high art- run through your fingers like sand.

[[1amayzingman]]

You're confusing your terms now.

Since artistic does not equate as perfect.


I think you'd be surprised how many artists would disagree with you, since art is another field which has a poor definition.

If you view art as expressive visual creativity, well, the rougher expressive crayon doodle would most likely win against a photorealistic portrait. (though the undertones to miss lisa are debateable)

You're not considering your terms with a properlly open mind. If you do, it's a bit dissapointing that all of the standards and cultural norms you held in these areas- such as high art- run through your fingers like sand.

The field has a poor definition, but art is still art.

The point you're trying to argue is that there is absolutely no difference in quality between any and every single piece of art ever created. I'm telling you that's crazy, and patently false.

[LightDimDark]

God lets us make our own choice, whether to sin or not.

Yet he has a plan for everybody..
Do you see how those contradict?

[anyone]

Aesthetic standards =/= aesthetic laws.

Just because 2 people don't agree on what is perfect doesn't mean there isn't a perfect being.

And by perfect being, whose definition of "perfect" are you following? Is there evidence to support that definition?
Absolute perfection is simply too vague to bother discussing. Both parties just end up confusing each other with their presumptions of the concept.

[TDWfan]

Yet he has a plan for everybody..
Do you see how those contradict?

He uses peoples choices to make stuff better. If 1 person doesn't do what he asks, he goes to another

[[1amayzingman]]

Aesthetic standards =/= aesthetic laws.


And by perfect being, whose definition of "perfect" are you following? Is there evidence to support that definition?
Absolute perfection is simply too vague to bother discussing. Both parties just end up confusing each other with their presumptions of the concept.

I'm not discussing what specific qualities make a person or object perfect. I'm simply saying that such qualities exist.

[anyone]

I'm not discussing what specific qualities make a person or object perfect. I'm simply saying that such qualities exist.

Conditional perfection exists, that's all that I can conclude.
However, attributing the quality of perfection to something that doesn't have many pre-defined conditions (such as a being) makes it too easy to get subjectivity involved. Just saying...

[Crunchy]

So, this is how I view things, and you can critique and pick at it if you'd like:

It all began when early humans realized the inevitability of death. Death, of course, is a very scary thing - especially when you have no idea what causes it or what it does. What happens when you die? Where do you go? From these questions were born the mythologies we know today, many of which contain some form of afterlife or continuation of life after death. This made death less of a scary though, where ancient man could say with comfort "They are in a better place."

But where do Gods come in? Simple answer: Unanswered questions. To the ancient man, things we take as common knowledge today were marvel breakthroughs of their time. Where does lightning come from? Why does the Sun set? What causes rain? From these questions came Gods and higher power. Chariots pulling the Sun across the sky in Egypt, Zues's lightning bolts, and Goddesses hair forming the Oceans and the rain. Simple, made-up answers for questions that were just beyond early man's understanding. The same can be said about today, but we'll touch up on that later.

Now let's talk about God. The Almighty creator, who in seven days (technically six) created all we know. When you think about it, there is not much difference from the God that is commonly accepted in Christianity, Judaism, Catholicism (and some may argue Islam) from the Gods that were once believed as true during the times of Ancient Greece and later in Rome. The only difference is that Christianity is relatively young and has yet to be accepted as false by the majority of society. Religion only becomes mythology when it has been shown to be completely rediculous/false.

Now after all this, let me throw you an example: A remote island, let's say located in the Pacific Ocean, is completely void of any outside human contact. A tribe lives there, and they worship a volcano. This volcano created their island, it helps fertilize their land, and they are at the mercy of its destructive force. They truly believe this volcano is a divine being, and they worship it. Now let's switch that volcano with the God that people believe in commonly today. God is believed to have created the Universe, gave the land some life, and we are at the mercy of his destructive force. But we know a volcano isn't a divine being, and that it is just a natural occurrence in our world. The same thing can be said about everything we attribute to God. I'm not going to teach science though, but advise to respect the similarities in that a remote village on an island will believe in something to explain what they don't understand just as we will believe in something for so long until it is disproven (without resistence, of course.)

I encourage everyone to think with an open mind. Do your own thinking, research your own beliefs, and if you have doubt in something, accept it! Life is all about answering questions and learning more. I don't know about you, but sticking with one answer seems kind of counterproductive. Don't deny learning more about evolution or the Big Bang because it conflicts your religion. If it conflicts your religion, don't you think that may be something to learn more about? Why is it so conflicting? What sort of evidence does it have that people will condemn talking about it in your religion? Take the values from your religion, but question the 'explanations'. You'd be surprised what you never knew about until you keep an open mind.

[TDWfan]

I have to stay off tyhe computer for a week. So you won't see any of me for a week. Bye.

[LightDimDark]

He uses peoples choices to make stuff better. If 1 person doesn't do what he asks, he goes to another

Show me the scripture to prove that, because I'm pretty sure you are just making this up as you go along.

[Lancer]

I have to stay off tyhe computer for a week. So you won't see any of me for a week. Bye.

ummm... kinda off-topic, but bye

[Toad]

Perfection really only exists in the eye of the beholder

•Perfection is, broadly, a state of completeness and flawlessness

This definition relies on 2 subjectives- completeness and lack of flaws. Any ideals of perfection only exist in our human minds, so again- this is anthropomorphising our universe.

I have to disagree with your definition of perfect.

2+2=4 is a perfect equation isn't it? I see no flaws or mistakes anywhere.

BUT WAIT! I want 2+2 to equal 5! This is a much better equation in my eyes! Does this mean 2+2=4 is imperfect now? Of course not! That makes no sense. Just because some people don't like something doesn't mean that it isn't perfect.

[LightDimDark]

I have to disagree with your definition of perfect.

2+2=4 is a perfect equation isn't it? I see no flaws or mistakes anywhere.

BUT WAIT! I want 2+2 to equal 5! This is a much better equation in my eyes! Does this mean 2+2=4 is imperfect now? Of course not! That makes no sense. Just because some people don't like something doesn't mean that it isn't perfect.

Let's say that I sit in a hot tub and say "Man, this is the perfect temperature!"
My sister sits in it also and says "OMG it's way too hot!"
To my sister, the water is not the perfect temperature, but to me it is.
Does that make the water imperfect? No, because the water is not perfect, because if it was, everyone would love it.
Perfection only exists in our minds, alongside the concept of God.

[[1amayzingman]]

Let's say that I sit in a hot tub and say "Man, this is the perfect temperature!"
My sister sits in it also and says "OMG it's way too hot!"
To my sister, the water is not the perfect temperature, but to me it is.
Does that make the water imperfect? No, because the water is not perfect, because if it was, everyone would love it.
Perfection only exists in our minds, alongside the concept of God.

You're basically saying that if imperfect things (people) don't know what perfection is, then it can't exist. The fact that a lot of things in life are relative is people's fault, and not some intrinsic quality of nature.

[Blackie6789]

But if God was perfect, he would be able to stop all evil in the word with one flick of his wrist.

So is he unable to rid the world of evil?
Then he is not perfect

Is he not willing to get rid of all the evil in the world?
Then why call him God?

God said with His own words to Adam and Eve that the day they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would die. They ate it, sin entered the world and Adam and Eve caused sin and death.

It shows how much God loves us that he didn't explode Adam and Eve right there and start a new creation, he gave them a second chance, as far as I know, they are in heaven. God loves us more than you know.

It could be viewed from a fundamentalist atheist perspective that Christians are following a pointless life too, and deliberately trying to steer people into falsified way of life. Not my personal view, but life without religion certainly isn't pointless.

Sure...Your whole life is spent trying to be popular and wealthy. But once you die what's the point of it all?

There is no proof that God exists,

It's all around us, the whole world is proof. Also, we have the Bible which is enough proof for me.

that's why religion is based on faith.

True, you must accept God by faith.

You seem to view science and religion as overlapping magesteria, and you know there's no definitive proof of God. If there were something like DNA which proved Jesus had no biological father, wouldn't this scientific evidence be thrashed around mercilessly by theists?

What makes you think God has DNA? He wouldn't need it would he? I highly doubt that He has a DNA>

Enough proof is seeing/hearing people confess to God their sins. That doesn't just happen.

There will be a time in life when everything will seem to go wrong. In those moments, God is all around you. He put's those moments there to make you closer to Him.

Enough proof is reading books about Nicky Cruz, George Muller, David Livingstone, Bruchko, and much much more.

Enough proof is reading the Bible. It's there, it's your choice.

I'm praying for you RJ.

Well I wouldn't, because the God I believe in plays no part in my dad's death - or I don't believe in God.

I think you would be mad at someone obviously. If anyone probably God.

He hasn't done anything for me, because I don't believe he exists, or exists in the way you claim. This is just:

He made you. Is that enough>? What more can you have/want?

You should be thankful for each day you have alive.

ARGUMENT FROM EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL
(1) God loves you.
(2) How could you be so heartless to not believe in him?
(3) Therefore, God exists.

Which Richard Dawkins points out to be such a ridiculous argument, it's not even worth rebutting.

I don't believe I said that, I pointed out that we always look on the dark side of things.

I don't see what's so important about the Lazarus story. Billions of horrific things have happened to billions of people, and they have never recovered from these horrific events.

This is odd...It's very important, it shows how much God loves us.

Let me try to explain,

When Martha and Mary sent a messenger to Jesus to heal Lazarus, they expected him to come immediately to heal Lazarus. Instead, Jesus waited where he was for 2 days. On the 2nd day, He said that he was going to wake Lazarus up, his disciples not knowing what He really meant were confused...And then He told them Lazarus was dead.

They arrived at Martha/Mary's house on the 4th day. Notice the 4th day.

In jewish superstition, your soul, after you died lingered around your body. After the fourth day, no hope to revive the body was left, it was the most sad day for the deceased family.

Upon seeing Jesus arrive, Martha says: "if you had come a day earlier, Lazarus would have been saved,"

Right then, everything had gone wrong for Martha. And then Jesus drops the bomb and says: "do you still believe in me" And Martha answered yes.

Now this shows how much Martha loved Jesus. Would you love Him this much to say that when everything went wrong?

In the next few verses, it shows how much Jesus loves us.

It says upon seeing Martha and her family he wept.

The Greek translation of this referred to the "snorting of a horse" for those of you who have seen a horse snort, it is a large scale operation. The whole body of the horse is thrown into it.

In the same way, Jesus was shook to the core of his heart.

How can you call Him evil? Would an evil person be shook to the core by this? Would he raise Lazarus up from the dead just for Martha? Jesus wept, not just a small tear, but with His whole body. That's how much He loves you.

Martha had every reason to hate Jesus.
Jesus had been healing everyone for years now.
Jesus was a friend of Martha's family.
Surely Jesus would heal Lazarus.
But He didn't.

You see, Martha thought surely he'll heal Lazarus, Jesus knows him and me very well. When Jesus didn't heal him, she had every reason to believe Jesus didn't love her anymore. Instead of cursing Him, she chose to believe in Him.

Will you choose to believe in Him when everything goes wrong>?

No matter what happens, or how bad you have lived your life? This sounds too much like 'pick the correct God to win' than living a moral and good life, not really a religion I would follow.

Also, another reason I don't follow the old testament god, or take the bible literally (apart from the heinously flawed science), is because the bible is written by man, and has man's view on the world, and their opinions thrown into it. Taking the bible literally would mean I would be believing in this God:



Not really a God I'd be willing to follow.

The Bible was written by holy men inspired by God. Also, God breathed men. This literally means that God gave them the correct words to write the Bible. It is more then a mere human book written by men. It is not flawed, give me some examples, besides the In the beginning stuff, I want proof.

By the way, have you wondered how he Bible fits together when it's written by over 40 men in a period of thousands of years>? Think about it, that is no mere book written by men, the fact that it all fits together shows that it's more than a mere religion.

[[1amayzingman]]

But if God was perfect, he would be able to stop all evil in the word with one flick of his wrist.

So is he unable to rid the world of evil?
Then he is not perfect

Is he not willing to get rid of all the evil in the world?
Then why call him God?

Maybe evil serves a purpose? Helps people become stronger, perhaps?

[The Guardian]

Maybe evil serves a purpose? Helps people become stronger, perhaps?

If there was no evil, then how would we know what good was? There must be balance.

[Blackie6789]

If there was no evil, then how would we know what good was? There must be balance.

The original basis for morality and right and bad was the Bible.

If you don't believe in the Bible yet believe in moral and doing what's right, your contradicting yourself, your taking from my argument to build yours.

[Rim]

''Adam and Eve caused sin and death''

Lynch 'em.