Does god exist?

[Suuper]

But then you have to define what is possible. If a being can do anything, and you can think of something impossible, then by its nature you've discovered something it cannot do. Any mortal man can do 'anything possible' - the point of God's omni potency is that he can do impossible things like miracles and shaz.

The impossible would be anything which is impossible because of itself. Anything that contradicts itself.

[Cirmentia]

With all this talk about perfection, I thought it'd be nice to post the actual definition of "perfect."

1. Adjective: Having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.
2. Verb: Make (something) completely free from faults or defects, or as close to such a condition as possible.

[PooZy]

The impossible would be anything which is impossible because of itself. Anything that contradicts itself.

If something is not possible for God to do then he is not all powerful. You can't reason it by saying being all powerful means you can only do possible things, because any mortal man can do possible things.

[Mars]

With all this talk about perfection, I thought it'd be nice to post the actual definition of "perfect."

1. Adjective: Having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.
2. Verb: Make (something) completely free from faults or defects, or as close to such a condition as possible.

Really makes you think...we have this word 'perfect', yet, nothing realistically can be equated with the word perfect.

[Suuper]

If something is not possible for God to do then he is not all powerful. You can't reason it by saying being all powerful means you can only do possible things, because any mortal man can do possible things.

Any mortal man can create matter? Teleport objects? I don't think so.

[Mars]

Any mortal man can create matter? Teleport objects? I don't think so.

It's becoming possible actually, but it's just tiny particles for the time being.

I can't find that article at the moment, but it was done in Australia if I'm not mistaken.

Edit: Here is the article

[Suuper]

It's becoming possible actually, but it's just tiny particles for the time being.

I can't find that article at the moment, but it was done in Australia if I'm not mistaken.

Any mortal can do it, though?

[PooZy]

Any mortal man can create matter? Teleport objects? I don't think so.

Both have been done by scientists (well.. teleporting tiny amounts of matter, but it still counts)

[Mars]

Any mortal can do it, though?

Nope, not any mortal. I thought I read your post as it's not possible. I was simply stating humans have teleported objects before.

[Suuper]

Both have been done by scientists (well.. teleporting tiny amounts of matter, but it still counts)

Any mortal can do it, though?

^
My point is that God can do anything which doesn't make itself impossible, while there are some things not strictly impossible that humans can't do.

[PooZy]

^
My point is that God can do anything which doesn't make itself impossible, while there are some things not strictly impossible that humans can't do.

God can't make people do things against their will, but humans can using hypnosis and mind-control drugs etc etc

Basically what I'm saying is that not everything God can't do is 'impossible', the point of the 'impossible' examples is to show the idea of absolute power cannot exist. You're basically saying God would have "within possible limits" power.

[Dealth]

Its funny how imperfect people try to define the definition of perfect, even though perfect had never existed.
I think someone should go back to the Hebrew version of the Bible and find where it says God is perfect.

[Suuper]

God can't make people do things against their will, but humans can using hypnosis and mind-control drugs etc etc

Basically what I'm saying is that not everything God can't do is 'impossible', the point of the 'impossible' examples is to show the idea of absolute power cannot exist. You're basically saying God would have "within possible limits" power.

I think that's a different argument. The only thing that would keep God from doing that is his kindness (or whatever trait), not a limit on his power. God doesn't want to, and will never want to, as wanting to would make him not perfect.

[Suuper]

Its funny how imperfect people try to define the definition of perfect, even though perfect had never existed.
I think someone should go back to the Hebrew version of the Bible and find where it says God is perfect.

Perfection has existed and does exist. For example, you can achieve a perfect score on a game, by making a perfect run/play.

[Mars]

I think that's a different argument. The only thing that would keep God from doing that is his kindness (or whatever trait), not a limit on his power. God doesn't want to, and will never want to, as wanting to would make him not perfect.

That would lead to different views on what people consider to be 'kind'.

[PooZy]

I think that's a different argument. The only thing that would keep God from doing that is his kindness (or whatever trait), not a limit on his power. God doesn't want to, and will never want to, as wanting to would make him not perfect.

If he CANNOT do it then he CAN'T do it
therefore he can't do it, which is what I said. If he DID do it he's become imperfect and just.. explode.. or something, therefore the definitions of his existence cannot allow him to actually do it. This means he does not have the power to do it.

Perfection has existed and does exist. For example, you can achieve a perfect score on a game, by making a perfect run/play.

Only if you consider a high score or quick time to be perfect. Perfect is defined by opinion.

[Suuper]

If he CANNOT do it then he CAN'T do it
therefore he can't do it, which is what I said. If he DID do it he's become imperfect and just.. explode.. or something, therefore the definitions of his existence cannot allow him to actually do it. This means he does not have the power to do it.

You are handed a loaded gun. Rammjet is in front of you. CAN you shoot him? It's similar to this. Most people would say "Yes, but you wouldn't want to." and not "No, if you don't then you can't."

Only if you consider a high score or quick time to be perfect. Perfect is defined by opinion.

Most people do. The score is perfectly high or fast. There are no flaws.

[PooZy]

You are handed a loaded gun. Rammjet is in front of you. CAN you shoot him? It's similar to this. Most people would say "Yes, but you wouldn't want to." and not "No, if you don't then you can't."



Most people do. The score is perfectly high or fast. There are no flaws.

I'd consider a perfect playthrough the one which you had the most fun playing.

And anyway, as a human I COULD shoot rammjet, but if the definition of my existence depended on me NOT shooting him then it would be impossible for me to shoot him and therefore it would be out of my power to do so. You can't compare human actions to the actions of an 'omnipotent' being.

[Rammjet]

It's a bit funny how this thread is now all atheists arguing pretty much for fun. x3

anyway, in general characteristics with 'omni' slapped on the front are pretty paradoxical, because they propose a whole series of strange situations, which the only solutions to are strange rationalisations which make assumptions about a being's character we aren't sure exists.

What this shows is that people's idea of Gods, even religionists themselves, are convoluted and inconsistant much of the time, so it's very difficult to start trying to establish the existance or lack of existance of Gods, when hardly anybody can agree on predictive traits to analyse either logically or empirically.

What do we arrive at then? We arrive at the statement that if you don't agree specific logical properties of a Deity, they remain unfalsifiable, and unfalsifiable ideas command no power.

[Mars]

Most people do. The score is perfectly high or fast. There are no flaws.

Nazi's thought they were perfect without flaws, does this count?